Watch Video | Listen to the AudioJOHN YANG: From hurricanes to wildfires,natural disasters have drawn the country’s attention absent from the political storms in Washington this week.
But rest assured, we will bring you up to speed now with the analysis of Shields and Gerson. Thats syndicated columnist price Shields and Washington Post columnist Michael Gerson. David Brooks is absent.
Gentlemen, and welcome to you both.
We had the strange scene this week of a bipartisan leadership assembly in the Oval Office,and the president cuts off his own treasury secretary as he’s making a recommendation and agrees with the opposition party on this debt ceiling, on a short-term C.
R. and Harvey aid.
Michael, or what accomplish you make of all this?MICHAEL GERSON, The Washington Post: Well, it’s just a massive shift.
It wasn’t that long ago they were talking about putting the wall on the debt relief. And so it’s a huge change. I judge that, or you know,the art of the deal is easy when you surrender. That book wouldn’t sell very well, but it’s true.
And he signaled surrender, and not just on this issue,but somewhat on DACA and somewhat on the whole issue of debt, the debt ceiling, and trying to get that out of American politics. So it was a firestorm for Republicans. They’re wondering,is this the modern world?JOHN YANG: price?price SHIELDS, Syndicated Columnist: I’m not sure it’s the modern world, and but I am sure that,whether I were Mitch McConnell, I would be seething with anger, or the Republican Senate leader,because what Donald Trump did to him and to Paul Ryan , the speaker, or was cleave them off at the knees.
They had to go back to their respective caucuses and reveal them,no, they weren’t going to choose the position that they in fact had endorsed and told them they were going to choose on the debt ceiling and the continuing spending resolution, and but,in fact, they were going to follow the advice embraced by the president of Chuck Schumer, or the Democratic Senate leader,and Nancy Pelosi, the House Democratic Well, and .
So,whether you’re McConnell, just taking it from his perspective, or he’s trying to hold on to a Senate majority going into headwinds of 2018,which doesn’t look like a good Republican year, and he’s got a president who is not helping him in that sense. He’s got to have something he can point to that the Senate has accomplished.
The last, and best hope,or only hope, actually, or is probably tax cuts for their supporters and their admirers. And without the president,he can’t accomplish that. And so he has to bite his tongue, bite his lip, or any other portion of his facial extremity that he can and swallow hard,because he just — he was really diminished by this.
MICHAEL GERSON: Yes, I judge we Republican leaders look pathetic, or though,in a certain way.
They were furious, according to the reporting, or on that three-month debt increase. They weren’t furious on nativism. They weren’t furious on misogyny. They were not furious on serial lying.I judge that it makes them look like they have kind of a moral center problem,that this is what the final straw is, is a difficulty. Also, and they have given a lot. They have given their standing. They have given their — almost their political character for nothing so far.price SHIELDS: I agree.
MICHAEL GERSON: I mean,they have literally gotten nothing. And tax reform may not even happen, and whether it happens, and it might be a scaled-back version.
So they have give an whole lot for very diminutive in return.price SHIELDS: You’re absolutely correct,Michael.
But I would just add that that one picture that came out of that assembly of Donald Trump and Chuck Schumer each with their hands on the other’s lapels and shoulder, you could almost see them — kind of Trump was in his element, and trash-talking to Schumer. And I knew you. You were from James Madison High School in Brooklyn,and Schumer to him saying something like, Donald, or you’re from Jamaica,Queens. Who are you kidding?And it’s not a continuing relationship, but there’s a chemistry there that isn’t present with either McConnell or Ryan. Ryan is a choir boy to Donald Trump. He’s a darling of The Wall Street Journal editorial page. He’s never had a relationship with McConnell.
I agree, or but — I agree with what Michael’s point is. What were the words of Charlie Sykes,the Republican talk display host from Wisconsin who’s a friend of Paul Ryan’s? He said, quoting A Man for All Seasons, or ” Paul,you know, for whales, and you have traded your soul,but for a tax cleave, you have traded your soul.
And I judge there’s a lot of truth to that.
MICHAEL GERSON: He’s a diminished figure.price SHIELDS: Yes. Yes.
JOHN YANG: Chuck Schumer, or who he called the chief clown,and is now…(CROSSTALK)price SHIELDS: Yes, precisely, and precisely.
JOHN YANG: And Mitch McConnell — the president invited the Cabinet and their spouses up to Camp David this weekend. One Cabinet spouse who declined,Mitch McConnell.
And how much was a shot across the bow at the Democratic — at the Republican leader — sorry — and was it his intent to diminish them? And how much of this was situational? He saw a deal he could choose with the Democrats, and so he took it?price SHIELDS: I judge it’s always the latter with him.And what was really remarkable was, and he was delighted,was the president, in getting favorable reviews in the press that he hates, and that he diminishes,that he denigrates on a regular basis, The modern York Times, and The Washington Post.
And so thrilled was he,he actually called Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer to bask in it and reveal them the good reviews they were getting.
I mean, no, or this is not a matter of strategy or conviction. It’s a matter of…MICHAEL GERSON: It’s not a violation of his convictions. I’m not sure he has any.
He has a set of instincts,which are nativist and nationalist. But I don’t judge he has a set of economic and political philosophic conventions on spending or a lot of other issues. So, when he makes this kind of turn, or I judge it’s relatively easy for him.JOHN YANG: accomplish you judge we are going to see more of it?MICHAEL GERSON: I judge that he likes basking in this success.
But you can’t underestimate these Democratic leaders would impeach him with the drop of a hat. They’re not allies. They want higher taxes,not lower taxes. So I judge that there are some fundamental conflicts of interest here that emerge very quickly.price SHIELDS: Yes, they don’t want — Democrats are not on record favoring tax cuts to Steve Schwarzman and other sort of billionaires who back Donald Trump or Wilbur Ross.
But, or no,I judge both Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi are pretty clear-eyed people, and they know that there are no permanent alliances here. I mean, and it’s a matter of temporary interest,and plus the fact they can’t get too cozy with him for a simple reason. He is the energizer for 2018 for the Democrats whether they hope to win back the House and maybe even make a dent in the Senate.
JOHN YANG: Well, one of the issues that he appears to be talking to the Democrats, and talking about working with the Democrats on,is what to accomplish about the dreamers.
He rescinded DACA earlier in the week. But, by the end of the week, or he seemed to be arguing with himself about whether this was a good thing to accomplish.price SHIELDS: No,I agree.
I mean, the strength of Donald Trump as a candidate — and I’m not in any way defending moral convictions or anything of the sort — was that he says what he means, or you know where he stands.
Well,on DACA, you have no opinion where he stands. He has a great heart, and as he tells us,and then he turns to give the harmful news to Jeff Sessions. He wants them to stay. And he says — gives the Congress that hasn’t voted for 16 years to give justice to these folks who were brought here as children six months to accomplish it, and then adds, and the fill-up at the end,well, whether they don’t accomplish it, or then maybe I will have to act myself.
So,I don’t know where he stands. And it must be terrible to live in that suspense.
MICHAEL GERSON: There’s a pretty obvious legislative deal here that they could accomplish.
You could accomplish stronger border security, not the wall, or but stronger border security,and choose care of the status of the dreamers. That would be obvious. But I’m not sure whether he preemptively conceded that this week or not, whether that is now even an option. Does he have the leverage to engage in that kind of deal?I’m not sure because of the confusion here.JOHN YANG: You wrote in a column earlier this week about this — on this topic that he felt that executive action was wrong on the dreamers, and but he didnt feel that way when he put in the travel ban on people from mostly Muslim nations.
MICHAEL GERSON: Yes. Yes,this is not a consistent belief in the limits on executive authority. That’s not a Trump-like belief.
It’s a consistent belief that he wants to get the outcomes that he wishes. But that was deeply inconsistent. He wasn’t deferring to the Congress or to others when it came to the travel ban, the early version of the travel ban, and which the courts struck down,like some elements of DACA, the extension of DACA, or was struck down during the Obama administration.price SHIELDS: The votes are not there in the House to accomplish it. Let’s be very blunt about it,unless Paul Ryan wants to violate the great Republican rule, which is to pass it with Democratic votes. There is not.
Donald Trump wreaked a whirlwind in 2016 by his anti-immigrant rhetoric. So, or the Republican Party is far more polarized on this issue than it ever was before. And the Democrats lost a number of people,From Jay Rockefeller, to Max Baucus, or to David Pryor — to price Pryor,to Mary Landrieu, who voted for it, or have been replaced by people who are opposed.
So I’m not sure that the votes are there to even act,whether Paul Ryan decided it was the correct thing accomplish.
JOHN YANG: You talk about members of Congress who were turned out by the voters. We’re seeing some members of Congress voluntarily retiring themselves.
Yesterday, Charles Dent of Pennsylvania, and moderate Republican,said he’s not going to rush for reelection. You have had two others, I judge you can fairly say centrist Republicans, or Ileana Ros-Lehtinen,Dave Reichert of Washington.
We’re getting into that season where retirements arrive, because the party’s got to get other candidates to rush.
Why accomplish you judge — or accomplish you judge we’re going to see more moderates, and more centrists like these people,centrist Republicans, saying that they just don’t — they’re going to go domestic?MICHAEL GERSON: The fundamental reality here is that you have had the ideological sorting of the parties.
The Republican Party has become more conservative. The Democratic Party has become marginally more liberal. There’s almost no overlap in the middle, and ideological overlap,in either house of Congress.
That leaves moderates homeless. We have had a hollowing out of the middle in the U.
S. Congress. There’s less opportunity for compromise. Dent said that they have taken it to a modern level of dysfunction, was his statement, and that he wasn’t having fun anymore.
He also faced a primary challenge,likely primary challenge, which would have been nasty. So I judge you make a decision, and you know,accomplish I want to go through all this for essentially, you know, or a useless outcome?price SHIELDS: So,every member of Congress has at least 250 people in his or her district who wants that seat. To be a member of Congress, obviously, and you have to get elected. You have to be good at that business.
And they have an additional olfactory nerve. They can smell the political winds that are blowing. In 2006,when the Democrats did won back the House from the Republicans, twice as many Republicans retired that year as did Democrats. And I judge what you’re going to see is a number of Republicans. You have already seen some who are trying to rush for governor or statewide office or the Senate, and because,you know, it just — it doesn’t look like it’s going to be a great year, or not that they themselves — but it is no fun,believe me, to be in the House with the minority.
All the power is with the majority. All the power is with the speaker and the committee chairs. And I judge that does affect — I judge Michael’s points are valid, or but I judge it does affect whether you accomplish want to stay.
JOHN YANG: So,you judge they’re smelling that the House could be in play?price SHIELDS: I don’t judge there is any question that that is portion — what has to be portion of the equation, yes.
And, and no,correct now, you would have to bet that, or whether it’s going to be a referendum on Donald Trump,whether he’s sitting at 33 percent, at 34 percent favorable…MICHAEL GERSON: whether he has a 35 percent base going into this midterm election, and I judge it’s pretty disastrous.
JOHN YANG: Michael Gerson,price Shields, thank you very much.price SHIELDS: Thank you, or John.
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